He who saves one soul it's as if he saved the entire world."
Why don't the educated Jews who know Torah go out to the unknowing Jews and show them the words that were written in the Tanakh. Counter attack these christians that are proselytising unknowing Jews showing that these christians are lying and turning the words of G-D around and misquoting what is said in Torah. Prove them wrong. These unknowing Jews are seeking for answers that are in there hearts and Neshama-נשמה they just do not know how or what to do. I say to my fellow Jews go out to your brothers and sisters the same way christians are doing bring them back t where they belong.
He who saves one soul it's as if he saved the entire world."
- Sanhedrin 37a
He who saves one soul it's as if he saved the entire world."
- Sanhedrin 37a
Views: 2410
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Shy Guy on
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Yoel, open up the Gemara and translate it accurately and within context. Also see the very end of that same Gemara at the top of 37b.
That's not to negate your idea. It's just that you should seek the correct sources for it.
I've personally envisioned a counter-organization to JFJ, which can be called Gentiles for Noahidism, whose goal would be essentially what you advocate. Now all we need is the equivalent funding, which is in the 100s of millions of dollars to do this worldwide and the christian world would be sorry they ever began toying with us.
I have a dream........
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Permalink Reply by ellen on
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Yoel,
I believe that qualified rabbis and counter-missionary experts should be bringing those lost sheep home, but I don't think it's the task of every Jew to try and bring the apostate back into the fold. Method, approach and caution is important. An open "welcome home" policy is a key to a missionary disaster in Eretz Yisrael - especially when every other evangelical christian Tom, Dick, and Harry are claiming that they have been "grafted" into the Jewish tree.
Apostacy is serious business, as is Avodah Zarah. We Jews are given the proper methods and formula for handling the situation. As painful as it is, there are reasons that those who have left the faith are to be ostracized from the community until they will feel a tug at their heartstrings and an itch to come back to their faith (as you say, the answers are in their hearts and souls - but they have to do the work). At that point we Jews should exert efforts to assist them, But they have to understand that they must "leave Jesus at the door"
Some argue that "messianic" congregations are but a stepping stone for Jews who have left the faith to come back to themselves. That may be true in some cases, but those same congregations are also very adept at and intent on stealing Jewish souls.
So this is a challenge best left to the Jewish experts in the field, or as Shy Guy pointed out "Gentiles for Noahidism".
And the entire problem needs to be handled with the utmost caution in Eretz Yisrael, where one risks losing all (G-d forbid) if we dabble with "strange fires".
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Permalink Reply by Yoel on
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Hi Ellen, I may not be as orthodox as you guys are but as you may have seen on Israelinsider I could not stand by and let proselytising christians post there junk. Ellen how do you handle Jews who do not know the Tanakh do you let these people get trapped by there unknowing of Torah or do you go out there and show these Jews the truth. Ellen if these Jews were not seeking they would not get tricked into the christian proselytising I still say it is for every Jew to help as much as they can by showing the love of Torah not to shove them away
Something I picked up on Torah Truth by Mitchell Cohen
Location: Efrat, Judea, Israel
A "Jew for nothing" means the end of a treasured heritage. A "Jew for nothing" means throwing off the yoke of Torah. A "Jew for nothing" means tossing away what our ancestors have often sacrificed their lives for. There is no neutrality or apathy here, but actively rejecting that which G-d has blessed you with. Even if by chance you end up marrying a Jew, what will you pass on to your kids that is of Jewish substance? Your kids' chances of marrying in will be even less than yours are. In a nutshell, we are talking about the end of the Jewish family tree.
For all these reasons, it is of the utmost importance to combat skeptics who tear apart the Torah. It says in the Talmud that one who says one Jewish soul is like one who saved a whole world. If by writing this journal I have saved one Jewish soul from the atheist/secular humanist missionaries then it is well worth it.
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Shalom Yoel,
I don't think we disagree that a prime Jewish value and task is to educate our people who don't know or understand. Education, and creating self-awareness and Jewish pride is obviously the key to upsetting missionary designs on our people - and the very key to our survival as a people. This is why JewishIsrael has gone online, and it is why I'm online (I prefer to be a reclusive writer, researcher, and sometimes painter).
But when it comes to the issue of Jews who have left the faith and entered the church or dabble in the worship of jesus, we need to turn to the experts - because we are dealing with cult worship. At times distancing ourselves from, and rejecting the practices of, certain "lost souls" is also a very effective form of Jewish education. The Talmud says we need to educate children (and in this case "lost children") by bringing close with our right hand and pushing away with our left. The disciplined left hand is the one we Jews who are so full of compassion hate to use, but it is an essential component in bringing those who have gone off the derech home.
Yoel said:Hi Ellen, I may not be as orthodox as you guys are but as you may have seen on Israelinsider I could not stand by and let proselytising christians post there junk. Ellen how do you handle Jews who do not know the Tanakh do you let these people get trapped by there unknowing of Torah or do you go out there and show these Jews the truth. Ellen if these Jews were not seeking they would not get tricked into the christian proselytising I still say it is for every Jew to help as much as they can by showing the love of Torah not to shove them away
Something I picked up on Torah Truth by Mitchell Cohen
Location: Efrat, Judea, Israel
A "Jew for nothing" means the end of a treasured heritage. A "Jew for nothing" means throwing off the yoke of Torah. A "Jew for nothing" means tossing away what our ancestors have often sacrificed their lives for. There is no neutrality or apathy here, but actively rejecting that which G-d has blessed you with. Even if by chance you end up marrying a Jew, what will you pass on to your kids that is of Jewish substance? Your kids' chances of marrying in will be even less than yours are. In a nutshell, we are talking about the end of the Jewish family tree.
For all these reasons, it is of the utmost importance to combat skeptics who tear apart the Torah. It says in the Talmud that one who says one Jewish soul is like one who saved a whole world. If by writing this journal I have saved one Jewish soul from the atheist/secular humanist missionaries then it is well worth it.
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Permalink Reply by Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor) on
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How can one give what one does not himself have?
The key to bringing back Jews who have lost their way, or are completely uneducated as well as to keeping the ones we have is very complicated.
Educating the Christian world about b'nei Noach is important, but not at the expense of educating our own people.
In order to do this, we need a couple of things to happen:
1. Judaism needs become a relevent and meaningful faith to those who are living in the 21st century. That means not being afraid of modernizing or spiritualizing as long as we don't cross any halachic boundaries. As a people we need to cultivate more joy - a common thread when speaking to those who have gone to the "other side". And we need to see Judaism as a living relationship with G-d, not just a bunch of rules to follow.
Just the other day I was writing in my autobiography (it should be finished this week!) about how when we were visiting the orthodox community, we began to realize that we wanted invitations from Baalei Teshuva and not from FFB's, why? They had more joy! They took their time, it was meaningful for them, so it was meaningful for us. If you send a Hebrew Christian to the home of someone like some of the FFBs we visited, they will leave feeling justified, not like they are missing something.
Now, I am not criticizing being frum from birth - that is the goal, but its very easy to just slip into a routine where we follow the rules but have no substance.
2. We need to convince the Jewish world that this is an endeavor worth investing in. Why is it that if I went to a church in my old home town and told them I was going to be a full-time missionary in Israel, I could get pledges of support for several thousand dollars a month - and that from only 1 church! Yet, when I speak, while people appear to be moved, they don't care enough to give more than $5. I could be a fully-funded full-time missionary, but a full-time counter-missionary doesn't have money to buy shabbos food (literally). Its just not something that we, as a Jewish people care about. How sad.
Penina Taylor
A full-time, starving, counter-missionary working to educate our people on every level about the beauty of Judaism and the false claims of missionaries.
PS... want to help put food on my shabbos table? I have paypal: penina@peninataylor.com. Want to facilitate my book being published? Email me at peninataylor@gmail.com
ellen said:Shalom Yoel,
I don't think we disagree that a prime Jewish value and task is to educate our people who don't know or understand. Education, and creating self-awareness and Jewish pride is obviously the key to upsetting missionary designs on our people - and the very key to our survival as a people. This is why JewishIsrael has gone online, and it is why I'm online (I prefer to be a reclusive writer, researcher, and sometimes painter). But when it comes to the issue of Jews who have left the faith and entered the church or dabble in the worship of jesus, we need to turn to the experts - because we are dealing with cult worship. At times distancing ourselves from, and rejecting the practices of, certain "lost souls" is also a very effective form of Jewish education. The Talmud says we need to educate children (and in this case "lost children") by bringing close with our right hand and pushing away with our left. The disciplined left hand is the one we Jews who are so full of compassion hate to use, but it is an essential component in bringing those who have gone off the derech home.
Yoel said:Hi Ellen, I may not be as orthodox as you guys are but as you may have seen on Israelinsider I could not stand by and let proselytising christians post there junk. Ellen how do you handle Jews who do not know the Tanakh do you let these people get trapped by there unknowing of Torah or do you go out there and show these Jews the truth. Ellen if these Jews were not seeking they would not get tricked into the christian proselytising I still say it is for every Jew to help as much as they can by showing the love of Torah not to shove them away
Something I picked up on Torah Truth by Mitchell Cohen
Location: Efrat, Judea, Israel
A "Jew for nothing" means the end of a treasured heritage. A "Jew for nothing" means throwing off the yoke of Torah. A "Jew for nothing" means tossing away what our ancestors have often sacrificed their lives for. There is no neutrality or apathy here, but actively rejecting that which G-d has blessed you with. Even if by chance you end up marrying a Jew, what will you pass on to your kids that is of Jewish substance? Your kids' chances of marrying in will be even less than yours are. In a nutshell, we are talking about the end of the Jewish family tree.
For all these reasons, it is of the utmost importance to combat skeptics who tear apart the Torah. It says in the Talmud that one who says one Jewish soul is like one who saved a whole world. If by writing this journal I have saved one Jewish soul from the atheist/secular humanist missionaries then it is well worth it.
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Permalink Reply by Jewish Israel on
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"You would be amazed how many Jews believe that Christianity & Judaism are the same"
Interesting comment. Check out the video on Sagiv Assulin's speech. JI hears it all the time from Israelis... "We share 'the same book, the same G-d'....". We have a lot of work ahead of us, Shannon. Israelis and Diaspora Jews (including some rabbis) also fall for the grafting, one-new-man, rhetoric too - which is just beyond the pale.
Shannon Orand said:One on one confrontation with missionaries can be a fun sport if you know what you're doing, but it accomplishes very little. Christianity is clearly not a religion of intellect, as you'll discover in these encounters. I do this on a weekly basis with missionaries outside our JCC, simply because I feel that they have the potential of reaching somebody there. I figure for every hour I spend tying them up arguing with me, they're not talking to others. But, the truth is: We're not going to change their minds, nor are they going to stop what they're doing.
We truly have to focus our energies on where we can really make a difference. Educate our own! Expose the missionary tactics, not to effect the missionary mind, but the minds of those "Jews for nothing". Raise awareness! You would be amazed how many Jews believe that Christianity & Judaism are the same. People just have no idea of the threat and must wake up!
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Permalink Reply by Captain Q. on
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That played over in my mind to the voice of Shimon Peres.
Jewish Israel said:"You would be amazed how many Jews believe that Christianity & Judaism are the same"
Interesting comment. Check out the video on Sagiv Assulin's speech. JI hears it all the time from Israelis... "We share 'the same book, the same G-d'...."
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Permalink Reply by ShoshanaTunk on
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This is the problem. Missionaries say that Jews and Christians have the same book and the same G-d. Unfortunately, Jews ignorant of the Torah belive this falsehood. We , obviously, do not worship their god who espouses idolatry and paganism , does not follow the Decalogue and has his roots in Dionysius. All Jews need to learn the words of Hashem to Moshe and the Children of Israel in the Chumash. Only then will they realise that the G-d of the Torah is not in any way the same as the Christian deity.
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JewishIsrael has a growing Torah section with quotes from Tanach relating to the prohibition of idolatry.
JI members are invited to add to the list of sources. No need to engage in theological debate with a list like that on hand. Just send your additions to info@jewishisrael.com an specify that it's for the Torah section of the site
ShoshanaTunk said:This is the problem. Missionaries say that Jews and Christians have the same book and the same G-d. Unfortunately, Jews ignorant of the Torah belive this falsehood. We , obviously, do not worship their god who espouses idolatry and paganism , does not follow the Decalogue and has his roots in Dionysius. All Jews need to learn the words of Hashem to Moshe and the Children of Israel in the Chumash. Only then will they realise that the G-d of the Torah is not in any way the same as the Christian deity.
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Permalink Reply by Patty Abbatoy on
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I think some counter-missionaries though make the truth of the Tanach a little too complicated for Jews who might not have had a strong Jewish education or those raised in secular, non-observant homes.
To quote Hannibal Lector in The Silence of the Lambs--Simplicity.
A lot of people assume that just because so many xtian bibles are published with the NT inlcuded that our bible and their bible are one in the same. That misperception must be addressed. A simple but important matter because missionaries will inevitably pull out their bibles with Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, which most Jews will recognize and then say, "Look, JC is mentioned right here in this bible in the back."
It's easy enough to debunk that JC was the messiah by all of the things he failed to do in his lifetime. Or merely walk into any church at Christmas when xtians are extoling JC as the "prince of peace" when there isn't peace in the world. Boy did that always play on my mind during Advent and Christmas!
The verse in Isaiah about G-d not being a man or son of man was critical to me. That truly meant He was non-corporeal and would never incarnate in human form. G-d is not a son of man either--a warning against worshipping any human being dead or alive as G-d.
Nowhere in the Tanach does Hashem ask for a human sacrifice--in fact He condemns as evil the kings who sacrificed children to molech (sp). G-d's mercy endures forever, He naturally would never require a human sacrifice and even animal sacrifices He required humane slaughter.
G-d is eternal. Tehillim 121 says the Guardian of Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps hence JC could not have been G-d since as a mere human he did sleep and slumber.
Messianic missionaries typically trick Jews on several key fronts--
1. JC as the Jewish messiah. Easy to debunk.
2. JC is G-d by misinterpretating the word "elohim" to connote a trinity. Easy to debunk.
3. G-d's laws are a curse. Again, easy to debunk. Kohelet says that the completion of man is to fear G-d and observe His commandments. Pretty straight forward. One need only compare Islam's Sharia Law to Torah Law to see how much humanity has benefited from Jewish law.
4.Heaven--xtians rarely tell Jews about tehiyat hamesim. Every Jew has mitvot like a pomegranete (sp) and all Jews have a share in the world to come.
These myths dealt with I agree with what others have written about making Judaism more joyful. I live in a largely Catholic section of the US. One day on the way to the supermarket I was listening to Jewish and Israeli music on my mp3 player, smiling. A guy asked why I was smiling and I told him I was listening to Israeli music.
He said, "I LOVE Israeli music." Whether he had ever in his life heard any is doubtful but nonetheless I was enthusiatic and it made him enthusiastic. A similar thing happened last Chanukah when I got a present of a stuff musical plush Chanukah bear. I kept pressing the paw over and over as I waited for the bus and on the bus--people were smiling and laughing as I kept playing the driedel song.
Childish? Perhaps, but it got people smiling.
Another thing--I wear a chai around my neck symbolizing life. Xtians wear crosses symbolizing a barbaric form of torture and execution. When non-Jews ask me what the chai means that's what I tell them, in a friendly way but that's what I tell them.
Finally, I think it would be terrific for Jewish groups to fund pro-Jewish PSAs on TV. Catholics have their Journey Home PSAs and Mormons have their little PSAs about ethics. Why not beautiful Jewish PSAs? And on a practical note--consider reaching out to Jewish prisoners in the US through the Aleph Institute's penpal program. They are sitting ducks and often targets of missionaries.
Okay. That's my very long two cents lol.
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Thanks, Patty.
That was a great two cents!
JI started a glossary of evangelical terms to help clarify the confusion over bibles. And, as already mentioned, we have a growing Torah section. Members with your kind of experience are encouraged to help us develop these sections in a direction which will help us to help others clarify, distinguish, and understand the very basic and essential differences between Judaism and Christianity. However, rather than delve into christian theological arguments - which we leave up to the counter-missionary experts in the field - JI prefers to strengthen the Jewish people in their knowledge of Judaism and in their awareness of themselves.
I love what you wrote...
"Another thing--I wear a chai around my neck symbolizing life. Xtians wear crosses symbolizing a barbaric form of torture and execution. When non-Jews ask me what the chai means that's what I tell them, in a friendly way but that's what I tell them."
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Permalink Reply by Ya'aqov Ben-Yehudah on
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Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor) said:
How can one give what one does not himself have?
The key to bringing back Jews who have lost their way, or are completely uneducated as well as to keeping the ones we have is very complicated.
Educating the Christian world about b'nei Noach is important, but not at the expense of educating our own people.
In order to do this, we need a couple of things to happen:
1. Judaism needs become a relevent and meaningful faith to those who are living in the 21st century. That means not being afraid of modernizing or spiritualizing as long as we don't cross any halachic boundaries. As a people we need to cultivate more joy - a common thread when speaking to those who have gone to the "other side". And we need to see Judaism as a living relationship with G-d, not just a bunch of rules to follow.
Peninah, what do you mean by this? ...that we need another Rav Shlomo Carlebach? No disagreement. However, it takes a variety of "flavors" to attract the variety of Jews who exist: Chabbad, Aish HaTorah, Rav Kahane, Machon Meir/Ora, etc.
Your statement sounds awfully Christian-like, with too much emphasis on kevannah, and none on keva.
Just the other day I was writing in my autobiography (it should be finished this week!) about how when we were visiting the orthodox community, we began to realize that we wanted invitations from Baalei Teshuva and not from FFB's, why? They had more joy! They took their time, it was meaningful for them, so it was meaningful for us. If you send a Hebrew Christian to the home of someone like some of the FFBs we visited, they will leave feeling justified, not like they are missing something.
Now, I am not criticizing being frum from birth - that is the goal, but its very easy to just slip into a routine where we follow the rules but have no substance.
I believe that you are wrong here, and that you simply haven't made it to the right FFBs' homes. This comment sounds like the comment of someone from the "outdside looking in."
It's called education of what the halacha really is, and differentiating it from the minhagim and humroth, a common error of BT yeshivas. They do it so that students don't "get confused." But then three years later, they still don't happen to mention the differences.
Who'd want to be a part of a religion which tells everyone they need to say every word int he siddur, when that is clearly not the halacha. Yep, that's a turn off.
The solution is not to look for new ways to achieve joy. The solution is to seek out rabbis who teach halacha correctly, and back up what they say with halachic {legal} sources, not hashqafic {POV} ones.
PS... want to help put food on my shabbos table? I have paypal: penina@peninataylor.com. Want to facilitate my book being published? Email me at peninataylor@gmail.com
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